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	<title>Comments for AZ World</title>
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	<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog</link>
	<description>Blog on Translation &#38; Interpration</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:26:23 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Translation Telephone by Happy Birthday Machine Translation!AZ World</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/translation-telephone/#comment-10884</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Birthday Machine Translation!AZ World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=269#comment-10884</guid>
		<description>[...] its 58 years later and Translation Telephone still turns, “Make love not war” into “We love war.”  Perhaps recently announced military [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] its 58 years later and Translation Telephone still turns, “Make love not war” into “We love war.”  Perhaps recently announced military [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Translation Telephone by A Great Example of the Complexities of Translation &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/translation-telephone/#comment-10848</link>
		<dc:creator>A Great Example of the Complexities of Translation &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 22:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=269#comment-10848</guid>
		<description>[...] while back we posted about a neat single serving site called Translation Telephone, which pointed out the flaws in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] while back we posted about a neat single serving site called Translation Telephone, which pointed out the flaws in [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Benefits of Archaic Translations by Herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/the-benefits-of-archaic-translations/#comment-10816</link>
		<dc:creator>Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=354#comment-10816</guid>
		<description>Yes, Alexander Pope put it well in the preface to his 18th century version of the &lt;i&gt;Iliad&lt;/i&gt;, where he warned against &quot;los[ing] the spirit of an ancient, by deviating into the modern manners of expression.&quot;

But there is another important issue posed by Stephen Mitchell&#039;s WSJ post: did he translate, or did he plagiarize existing translations without acknowledgement?

In his article, Mitchell discloses two earlier drafts leading to lines 50-55 of Book 1 of his version of  &lt;i&gt;The Iliad&lt;/i&gt; (lines 49-53 of the original Greek*).

The drafts support the following critique of Mitchell&#039;s previous work:

&quot;Mitchell does not translate. He does not even speak or read the languages that he &#039;claims&#039; to translate. He gathers the existing translations, takes what he likes from each, and produces his &#039;compromise.&#039;  Mitchell . . . has made an industry of pretending to translate works as diverse as the Book of Job, Gilgamesh, The Tao Te Ching, and the teachings of Jesus.&quot; †

Mitchell&#039;s first draft (described by him as &quot;raw stuff&quot;) was copied from the prose version of A.T. Murray (Wyatt rev., Harvard, Loeb Ed., 1999). 

Murray, p.16:

&quot;Then he sat down apart from the ships and let fly an arrow; 
terrible was the twang of the silver bow. 
The mules he attacked first and the swift dogs, 
but then on the men themselves he let fly 
his stinging arrows, and struck; 
and ever did the pyres of the dead burn thick.&quot;


Compare Mitchell&#039;s first draft (parentheticals his):

&quot;Then he sat down apart from (opposite) 
the ships and shot (let fly) an arrow, 
and terrible was the twang from the silver bow.
First he attacked the mules and the swift dogs,
then he shot his sharp (piercing) arrows on the men themselves,
and forever the pyres of the dead kept burning thick (close together).&quot;
 
The indebtedness of this draft to Murray is too heavy to be coincidence between two independently achieved translations.

Mitchell&#039;s second and final drafts incorporate minor changes, many found in other published translations. ±

Mitchell&#039;s second draft:						 Other translators:

Then he dropped to one knee and an arrow flew,   [Fagles: &quot;he dropped to a knee&quot;]
and a dreadful twang arose from the silver bow.	[Lattimore: &quot;rose from the bow&quot;]
First he attacked the mules and the flickering dogs,
then he let fly his arrows on the men themselves.
And night and day the pyres of the dead kept burning.	[Fitzgerald: &quot;night and day&quot;]

Mitchell final draft (as published):

He dropped to one knee and drew back a deadly arrow,
and a dreadful twang rang out from the silver bow.		   [Fagles: &quot;rang out&quot;]
First he attacked the mules and the dogs, but soon
he shifted his aim and struck down the men themselves.	  [Butler, Rieu: &quot;aimed&quot;]
And the close-packed pyres of the dead kept burning, burning,   [Rieu: &quot;close-packed&quot;]
beside the Achaean ships, all day and all night.

Apart from the revisions copied from other translators, Mitchell&#039;s final draft contains a few variations of his own, none of which conforms more closely to the Greek than the first draft, copied from Murray. In Mitchell&#039;s first line, &quot;drew back a deadly arrow&quot; has no basis in the original. In his second line the adjective &quot;dreadful&quot; is a paraphrase of &quot;terrible,&quot; and is no closer to the Greek. In his fourth line &quot;shifted his aim&quot; has no basis in the Greek, nor does &quot;struck down.&quot;  &quot;Beside the Achaean ships,&quot; in Mitchell&#039;s last line, does not appear in the original. Hence, the words which Mitchell introduced, without copying from other translators, do not constitute translations by him from the Greek.

Mitchell&#039;s development of the passage supports the critic&#039;s charge, quoted near the top of this comment, with a slight twist. Instead of  gathering existing translations and taking what he likes from each, Mitchell started with a copy of the Murray translation and overlaid it with parts of other, existing translations--a process which involved no translation by Mitchell. Mitchell does not credit Murray, or any translator.

_____________
* 	ἕζετ&#039; ἔπειτ&#039; ἀπάνευθε νεῶν, μετὰ δ&#039; ἰὸν ἕηκε·
	δεινὴ δὲ κλαγγὴ γένετ&#039; ἀργυρέοιο βιοῖο·	
	οὐρῆας μὲν πρῶτον ἐπῴχετο καὶ κύνας ἀργούς,
	αὐτὰρ ἔπειτ&#039; αὐτοῖσι βέλος ἐχεπευκὲς ἐφιεὶς
	βάλλ&#039;· αἰεὶ δὲ πυραὶ νεκύων καίοντο θαμειαί.

These lines are identical in the Oxford Classical Text and in M.L. West&#039;s text favored by Mitchell.

† http://www.amazon.com/review/R1PV0AT40S4LJO

± The translations cited besides Murray&#039;s are: R.Fagles (Penguin 1990); S.Butler (Barnes &amp; Noble Ed. 1995), p. 8; R.Lattimore (Chicago 1951); E.V. Rieu (Jones &amp; Rieu Rev., Penguin 2003), p. 5; R.Fitzgerald (FS&amp;G 1974).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Alexander Pope put it well in the preface to his 18th century version of the <i>Iliad</i>, where he warned against &#8220;los[ing] the spirit of an ancient, by deviating into the modern manners of expression.&#8221;</p>
<p>But there is another important issue posed by Stephen Mitchell&#8217;s WSJ post: did he translate, or did he plagiarize existing translations without acknowledgement?</p>
<p>In his article, Mitchell discloses two earlier drafts leading to lines 50-55 of Book 1 of his version of  <i>The Iliad</i> (lines 49-53 of the original Greek*).</p>
<p>The drafts support the following critique of Mitchell&#8217;s previous work:</p>
<p>&#8220;Mitchell does not translate. He does not even speak or read the languages that he &#8216;claims&#8217; to translate. He gathers the existing translations, takes what he likes from each, and produces his &#8216;compromise.&#8217;  Mitchell . . . has made an industry of pretending to translate works as diverse as the Book of Job, Gilgamesh, The Tao Te Ching, and the teachings of Jesus.&#8221; †</p>
<p>Mitchell&#8217;s first draft (described by him as &#8220;raw stuff&#8221;) was copied from the prose version of A.T. Murray (Wyatt rev., Harvard, Loeb Ed., 1999). </p>
<p>Murray, p.16:</p>
<p>&#8220;Then he sat down apart from the ships and let fly an arrow;<br />
terrible was the twang of the silver bow.<br />
The mules he attacked first and the swift dogs,<br />
but then on the men themselves he let fly<br />
his stinging arrows, and struck;<br />
and ever did the pyres of the dead burn thick.&#8221;</p>
<p>Compare Mitchell&#8217;s first draft (parentheticals his):</p>
<p>&#8220;Then he sat down apart from (opposite)<br />
the ships and shot (let fly) an arrow,<br />
and terrible was the twang from the silver bow.<br />
First he attacked the mules and the swift dogs,<br />
then he shot his sharp (piercing) arrows on the men themselves,<br />
and forever the pyres of the dead kept burning thick (close together).&#8221;</p>
<p>The indebtedness of this draft to Murray is too heavy to be coincidence between two independently achieved translations.</p>
<p>Mitchell&#8217;s second and final drafts incorporate minor changes, many found in other published translations. ±</p>
<p>Mitchell&#8217;s second draft:						 Other translators:</p>
<p>Then he dropped to one knee and an arrow flew,   [Fagles: "he dropped to a knee"]<br />
and a dreadful twang arose from the silver bow.	[Lattimore: "rose from the bow"]<br />
First he attacked the mules and the flickering dogs,<br />
then he let fly his arrows on the men themselves.<br />
And night and day the pyres of the dead kept burning.	[Fitzgerald: "night and day"]</p>
<p>Mitchell final draft (as published):</p>
<p>He dropped to one knee and drew back a deadly arrow,<br />
and a dreadful twang rang out from the silver bow.		   [Fagles: "rang out"]<br />
First he attacked the mules and the dogs, but soon<br />
he shifted his aim and struck down the men themselves.	  [Butler, Rieu: "aimed"]<br />
And the close-packed pyres of the dead kept burning, burning,   [Rieu: "close-packed"]<br />
beside the Achaean ships, all day and all night.</p>
<p>Apart from the revisions copied from other translators, Mitchell&#8217;s final draft contains a few variations of his own, none of which conforms more closely to the Greek than the first draft, copied from Murray. In Mitchell&#8217;s first line, &#8220;drew back a deadly arrow&#8221; has no basis in the original. In his second line the adjective &#8220;dreadful&#8221; is a paraphrase of &#8220;terrible,&#8221; and is no closer to the Greek. In his fourth line &#8220;shifted his aim&#8221; has no basis in the Greek, nor does &#8220;struck down.&#8221;  &#8220;Beside the Achaean ships,&#8221; in Mitchell&#8217;s last line, does not appear in the original. Hence, the words which Mitchell introduced, without copying from other translators, do not constitute translations by him from the Greek.</p>
<p>Mitchell&#8217;s development of the passage supports the critic&#8217;s charge, quoted near the top of this comment, with a slight twist. Instead of  gathering existing translations and taking what he likes from each, Mitchell started with a copy of the Murray translation and overlaid it with parts of other, existing translations&#8211;a process which involved no translation by Mitchell. Mitchell does not credit Murray, or any translator.</p>
<p>_____________<br />
* 	ἕζετ&#8217; ἔπειτ&#8217; ἀπάνευθε νεῶν, μετὰ δ&#8217; ἰὸν ἕηκε·<br />
	δεινὴ δὲ κλαγγὴ γένετ&#8217; ἀργυρέοιο βιοῖο·<br />
	οὐρῆας μὲν πρῶτον ἐπῴχετο καὶ κύνας ἀργούς,<br />
	αὐτὰρ ἔπειτ&#8217; αὐτοῖσι βέλος ἐχεπευκὲς ἐφιεὶς<br />
	βάλλ&#8217;· αἰεὶ δὲ πυραὶ νεκύων καίοντο θαμειαί.</p>
<p>These lines are identical in the Oxford Classical Text and in M.L. West&#8217;s text favored by Mitchell.</p>
<p>† <a href="http://www.amazon.com/review/R1PV0AT40S4LJO" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/review/R1PV0AT40S4LJO</a></p>
<p>± The translations cited besides Murray&#8217;s are: R.Fagles (Penguin 1990); S.Butler (Barnes &amp; Noble Ed. 1995), p. 8; R.Lattimore (Chicago 1951); E.V. Rieu (Jones &amp; Rieu Rev., Penguin 2003), p. 5; R.Fitzgerald (FS&amp;G 1974).</p>
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		<title>Comment on French Translation Award Highlights Complexities of Translating by Mcgraw</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/french-translation-award-highlights-complexities-of-translating/#comment-10806</link>
		<dc:creator>Mcgraw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=371#comment-10806</guid>
		<description>Its great to knew that china is providing excellent translation from french to Chinese. Because this translation is  really hard. This is article is really 
impressive. I like this very much . Thank you for this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its great to knew that china is providing excellent translation from french to Chinese. Because this translation is  really hard. This is article is really<br />
impressive. I like this very much . Thank you for this post.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Translation and Justice by The Importance and Challenges of Honest Courtroom Interpreting &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/translation-and-justice/#comment-10742</link>
		<dc:creator>The Importance and Challenges of Honest Courtroom Interpreting &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=272#comment-10742</guid>
		<description>[...] that there was any discrepancy in the courtroom interpreting.  One need only be reminded of the high profile case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn to realize how key proper interpretations are.      This entry was posted on November 22, 2011 at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that there was any discrepancy in the courtroom interpreting.  One need only be reminded of the high profile case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn to realize how key proper interpretations are.      This entry was posted on November 22, 2011 at [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Facebook Expands its Translation Services by Haward</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/facebook-expand-its-translation-services/#comment-10726</link>
		<dc:creator>Haward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=306#comment-10726</guid>
		<description>I like you article. Translation service is beneficial for the  end user. I also heard about the latest update of  Facebook translation service. It will definitely help people to comment on other language also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like you article. Translation service is beneficial for the  end user. I also heard about the latest update of  Facebook translation service. It will definitely help people to comment on other language also.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Translating Fiction by Translations in DiplomacyAZ World</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/translations/translating-fiction/#comment-10674</link>
		<dc:creator>Translations in DiplomacyAZ World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=331#comment-10674</guid>
		<description>[...] we’ve posted about Translating Fiction and the ambiguities and grey areas affecting that area of translation.   Today’s post is about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we’ve posted about Translating Fiction and the ambiguities and grey areas affecting that area of translation.   Today’s post is about [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on How Facebook translates their website by Facebook Expand its Translation Services &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/uncategorized/how-facebook-translates-their-website/#comment-10638</link>
		<dc:creator>Facebook Expand its Translation Services &#124; &#124; AZ WorldAZ World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=247#comment-10638</guid>
		<description>[...] few months back we wrote about Facebook’s use of crowdsourcing to improve the quality of its foreign language sites.  Well yesterday Facebook announced that it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] few months back we wrote about Facebook’s use of crowdsourcing to improve the quality of its foreign language sites.  Well yesterday Facebook announced that it [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on ¿Quién es y qué hace un corrector y revisor? by Ana Maria Zuniga</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/espanol-puro-y-simple/%c2%bfquien-es-y-que-hace-un-corrector-y-revisor/#comment-6327</link>
		<dc:creator>Ana Maria Zuniga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=192#comment-6327</guid>
		<description>Estimada Blanca:
Gracias por los comentarios. Cuéntanos que quieres que escribamos y en la medida de lo posible lo haremos.
Saludos y feliz Pascua.
Ana María</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Estimada Blanca:<br />
Gracias por los comentarios. Cuéntanos que quieres que escribamos y en la medida de lo posible lo haremos.<br />
Saludos y feliz Pascua.<br />
Ana María</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uso de las mayúsculas by Ana Maria Zuniga</title>
		<link>http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/espanol-puro-y-simple/uso-de-las-mayusculas/#comment-5765</link>
		<dc:creator>Ana Maria Zuniga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Apr 2011 18:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.a-zworld.ca/blog/?p=77#comment-5765</guid>
		<description>I am glad you liked it. Let me know if there is something you would like me to write about.

Cheers,

Ana Maria</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad you liked it. Let me know if there is something you would like me to write about.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Ana Maria</p>
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